The idea that Salaat implies to follow the Quran is being contested. The Quran does not clearly state that the act of Salaat is to follow the Quran. And by association, the definition Aqimussallat = "Establish the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands" is more of an ideology than anything corroborated by the Quran.
Discussion:
24:39 But as for those who reject the Message, their deeds are like a mirage in the desert. The thirsty one supposes it to be water till he comes unto it and finds nothing. However, he does meet God’s Law of Requital to compensate for his deeds. And God is Swift at taking account.
24:40 Or total darkness in the midst of a deep ocean, with waves upon waves and a thick cloud above - darkness upon darkness. When he holds out his hand, he can barely see it. For, whomever God deprives of light, will have no light. [Captain Dr. Bernard Jarman, a renowned oceanographer, upon reading this verse, embraced Islam in 1923]
24:41 Do you not realize that God, He it is Whom all beings in the heavens and the earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their Salaat and Tasbeeh (mission and strife). God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.
[All creatures know their Salaat, their inborn Divinely programmed instincts. So, they can automatically strive (do their Tasbeeh) in the best way. But humans are not programmed with such inborn instincts. Given free will, they must do their Salaat by following the revealed Guidance and thus strive (do Tasbeeh) in the best way]
24:42 Unto God belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and unto God is the journey’s end
Nowhere does the Quran describe the rituals of namaaz that is performed five times a day by the majority, name only, Muslims. If this is what Allah intended for us, then He would have put the instructions in at least one clear verse, leaving no doubt about His intentions.
The following has Shoaib telling the people to behave correctly and the people respond that this is a new “Salat”; no mention of praying rituals is made, so how can Salat be prayers?
11:84 And to Midyan, We sent their brother Shoaib. He said, "O My people! Serve God alone. There is no god for you but He. And do not give short measure and weight. I see that you are prosperous. But I fear for you a day that will surround you with chastisement." [Any system based on injustice cannot endure]
11:85 "Hence, O My people! Always give full measure and weight with equity and do not deprive people of what is rightfully theirs. Do not spread corruption and disorder in the land.”
11:86 “That which God gives you as just profit is better for you if you believe. But I am not a guardian over you."
11:87 They said, "O Shoaib! (We had thought that your religion was only a matter between you and your Lord.) Does your Salaat Command that we should forsake the worship that our fathers practiced? Or, that we leave off doing what we like to do with our economy? Indeed, you want us to think that you are the only clement, and the rightly guided man among us."
11:88 He said, "O My people, think again! What if I am acting on a clear evidence from my Lord, and He has provided me with a decent sustenance? I deal in all fairness and I shall never preach what I do not practice behind your sight. I only desire your betterment as much as I can. All my resources, abilities, and success depend on God alone. In Him I trust and to Him I turn with hope.”
11:89 "O My people! Let not my disagreement with you be taken personally to cause you to persist in your guilt so that the same (retribution) befall you that befell the people of Noah, and the people of Hud, and the people of Saaleh. And remember that the people of Lot did not live very far from you.”
From Parwez Sahebs Lughaat:-
1. As-Sal'a is the central portion of the backside, the portion from where tail of the animal comes out. Both sides are called Salwan and its plural is Salawatun (Taj).
2. Mosalli is the horse which comes at second place in a race, and is so close to the first-placed that its ears are touching the other's back portion. (The first one is called S'abiq.) It, therefore, means to follow the first one very closely. There is a saying of Ali the fourth caliph, "Sabaqa Rasool-Allah, wa salla Abu-Bakr wa sallasa Omar wa khabatatna fitnatun." Rasool-Allah went away first, followed by Abu-Bakr and then Omar and thereafter chaos overtook us (Taj).
3. According to Taj, Salea Wastala means attachment, to remain stuck. From this reference Raghib says that verse (74/43), "We were not Musalleen," means that they did not follow the Rusul. Accordingly Qurtabi also writes that Sal'at would mean to remain within the bounds of the Laws of Allah, and Tasleah means to walk behind a person so closely that there remains no distance; not to surpass him but remain closely behind.
4. It is very important to understand the relationship of man and Allah. Allah is the One Who is Supreme, Most Perfect and Most Beautiful. He has various Attributes called Asma-ul-Husna and each Attribute is perfect and complete. Allah has also given a personality to man and referred to it as "Roohona" - the Divine Energy (see Rooh). The object or the purpose of man's life is to develop his personality according to the Laws of Allah and inculcate in himself as much of Allah's Attributes as may be humanly possible.
In the first Surah (Al-F'atiha) of the Quran, a Momin is taught to ask of Allah to guide him to Sira't-Al-Mustaqeem (and that, in fact, should be a Momin's purpose of life - to tread the Sira't-Al-Mustaqeem all along - the straight and the balanced path) and in the eleventh Surah (Hud) it is stated that Allah continuously stays at Sira't-Al-Mustaqeem. It transpires from the above that the only straight path a Momin is required to adopt during the course of his life, is the same at which Allah Almighty Himself is going and running this universe. This path can easily be adopted by closely and steadfastly following the dictates of Allah's Book, i.e., the Holy Quran. Hence the basic meaning of Sal'at is complete concordance with the Book of Allah and thereby incorporating in one's own self Allah's most balanced Attributes, of course, as far as is humanly possible.
In verse (24/41) a question is asked: "Have you not pondered over the fact that whatever there is in the universe including the birds with wings spread out, is continuously carrying out their assignments with fullest play of their capabilities and each one of them knows its sphere of duties (Tasbeeh) and the way those are to be carried out (Sal'at)." This obviously means that everything in the universe knows by instinct, what are its duties and how to perform them and what is its destiny. As far as animal world is concerned, they do it by instinct. But if a human being wants to know, what is his Tasbeeh and Sal'at, it is a must for him to have faith in Wahi, through which all these directions containing do's and don'ts are explained. This is Iqamat-As-Sal'at, a special term used in the Quran.
To follow the Laws of the Quran is Iqamat-As-Sal'at. This is not possible individually and can only be done collectively; that is why the Quran has used the plural tense for this. It is the responsibility of an Islamic State is to establish this order (22/41), and they do it by mutual consultations (42/38). This system covers all the aspects of life, particularly the economic system. Verse (11/87) is very significant in this regard. It says: "O Shu'aib! does your Sal'at not permit us even to spend our wealth as we desire?" They did not understand as to what type of Sal'at is one which gives directions even in economic matters; they thought Sal'at is just a prayer or some sort of ritual.
In a nutshell it would pose one simple question. Would a person like to decide his affairs according to his desires, wishes or would he surrender before the Laws of Allah? This later position is called Sal'at. Verse (19/59) further clarifies: "they were followed by people who abandoned or negated the Sal'at." Therefore, following the Divine Laws is called Sal'at. As such Ibn-e-Qutaiba says, Sal'at actually means Ad-Deen and Iqamat-As-Sal'at means Iqamat-ud-Deen.
5. As-Salla means fire and firewood. Salla Asaho-Alan-Nar means he straightened and softened his stick by heating it with fire. As such Sal'at would also mean to remove one's defects. Author of Al-Minar says that Sal'at, in fact, is the recognition that one's personality needs guidance of a superior authority. In this way Qurtabi says that Sal'at means obedience to Allah.
6. Another meaning of Sal'at is to subdue and arrest and attract someone's attention (Moheet). This view would explain another meaning of Sal'at which is taming and harnessing the forces operative in the Universe.
7. One meaning of Sal'at is reverence and respect (Taj), i.e., to work for and establish a socio-economic system that proves the greatness of the Sustainer of this universe.
8. In Hebrew dictionary Salawat (plural of Sal'at) is the praying place of Jews. In verse (22/40) this word is used in that context.
9. Sal'at has also been used for a particular ritual. On the whole, whatever a Momin is doing by following the Laws of Allah, without any restrictions of time or formation, is Sal'at. But where ever in the Quran it refers to a particular action, its form and timing has to be fixed. In this regard there are various verses in the Quran, e.g.,
- Verse (5/6) mentions ablution, which is to be performed before offering Sal'at.
- Verse (4/43) prohibits the Momineen to perform Sal'at when they are under the influence of intoxication (the Momineen are, however, admonished to refrain from the use of intoxicants 5/90-91).
- In Surah Al-Jum'aa (62/9-10) it is commanded: "when you are called for the congregation on the day of Jum'aa, you should rush towards Zikr-Allah, putting aside your business - and after Sal'at spread out in the land in search of bounty of Allah and do His Zikr a great deal, so that you may prosper."
- Some specific timings are also mentioned in the Quran. Verse (17/78) directs the Momineen to establish Sal'at from early morning till late night. In this verse the word "Dalook" has been used which means from morning till evening, thereby denying the earlier superstition that certain times of the day are good or bad. It is further explained in verse (11/114) that Sal'at be established on the two ends of the day and early hours of night. Verses (20/130) and (50/39) mention about Hamd before sunrise and sunset and also late night when stars start fading (52/49).
- Verse (24/58) mentions about Sal'at-ul-Fajr and Sal'at-ul-'Ishaa when domestic servants are forbidden from entering private apartments without permission.
- fAbout recitation during Sal'at, the Quran says that you should understand as to what you are reciting (4/43) and do not recite loudly or in silence but adopt a course in between.
- The above verses explain that the meaning of Sal'at encompasses the congregational prayers as well. Wherever Aqeem-us-Sal'at is referred to, it means the establishment of the whole system, the obedience to the Laws of Allah, and the observance of all the duties expected of a Momin. At other places, it also refers to the offering of prayers as well other duties which are a part of the whole system. For this distinction one has to see the whole verse and the context in which it is brought. Similarly the word Musalleen is referred to those persons who are at the height of dignity ( 70/22-35).
- Salla Alaihe, according to Raghib, means to respect, to give blessings, to encourage, to grow, to nourish, to stop getting decayed. So in those verses of the Quran where this root occurs with 'Ala, it means that Allah and all the heavenly forces encourage you, provide you with necessary means of growth and nourishment and make your efforts bear fruit (33/43). In verse (2/157) it is stated that when the Momineen face difficulties in the enforcement and establishment of Deen, they do not get disheartened, but remain steadfast and they deserve all the appreciation and encouragement from Allah. This is also mentioned in particular about Rasool-Allah (peace be upon him) himself saying, "Allah and all the heavenly forces help and encourage him in the fulfilment of the Divine program. So, O Jama'at-ul-Momineen, you should also help your Rasool (peace be upon him), by following him and submitting before him." (33/56)”
by Joseph Islam
quote:
If Salat is not following the Quran, then it is certainly not doing rituals five times a day either! No “bird” I know performs rituals as a means of “Salat” to Allah. If they are engaged in following what they have been programmed to do then it is up to us to find out what is our best programming. This is by following the teachings, the principles, the values etc of the Quran, which means when I carry them out, I am performing my Salat. Salat is established collectively by implementing a Quranic social order; society then behaves in a harmonious manner, beneficial to all.
First of all there is no ‘as they fly in columns’ in the Quran in verse 24:41. There is also nothing to suggest in your translation that you have included this as an insertion.
With respect, you have missed the point of the verse.
All the verse informs us is the fact that creatures of God have a form of prayer and glorification. In another verse, God expands that it is clear that humans have not been given the capacity to understand their methods of glorification.
017.044
“The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet you understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!”
You say:
“Nowhere does the Quran describe the rituals of namaaz that is performed five times a day by the majority, name only, Muslims. If this is what Allah intended for us, then He would have put the instructions in at least one clear verse, leaving no doubt about His intentions”
What the Quran does not provide is pedantic ‘form’ and ‘utterance’ (what to say in your prayers). The Quran has no intention to prescribe this. All various other aspects of prayer have been provided by the Quran. (direction, need for wudu, allusion of times etc).
The details of ablution (4:43; 5:6)
A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the ‘believers’ (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
Garments (7:31)
Allusion of times: (4:103; 11:114; 17:78; 24:58; 30:18; 2:238: 20:58)
That prayers must be observed on time (4:103)
Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the Believers (Mu’mins) their own Qiblah (2:145)
Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4:102; 48:29)
There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (2:238)
There is a general form to prayer (2:238-39).
Standing position (3:39; 4:102)
Bowing down and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29)
Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239)
A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (62:9)
A warning not to abandon prayer as was done by people before (19:58-59) but to establish prayer (Numerous references)
The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6:162; 20:14)
Prayer involves utterance (4:43)
The purpose to protect from sins (29:45)
What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4:101)
Garments and mention of a Masjid, or a place of prayer (7:31)
The tone of prayer (17:110)
There is a leader of prayer (4:102)
The Quran has no intentions to define rakats, where you should tie your hands, what you should say in prayer etc. The purpose is communion with God. Communion is a personal spiritual experience and exercise. You misunderstand lack of form and utterance in the Quran as an absence of prayer altogether, This is untenable in light of the scripture.
You mention the narratives with respect to Shoaib (pbuh). You quote a rendering of a verse 11:87 as , and I quote:
11:87 They said, "O Shoaib! (We had thought that your religion was only a matter between you and your Lord.) Does your Salaat Command that we should forsake the worship that our fathers practiced? Or, that we leave off doing what we like to do with our economy? Indeed, you want us to think that you are the only clement, and the rightly guided man among us."
First what Arabic word are you translating as ‘economy’? The word used by the Quran is ‘amwalina’ which refers to their wealth (property, assets etc). The use of ‘economy’ implies resources at a regional or society level.
Secondly, the argument is not against ‘prayer’. The argument is against praying to what their forefathers used to worship. (natrula ma ya’badu abauna).
It seems you may have difficulty with finding the details for the ‘traditional prayers’ in terms of form and utterance in the Quran and therefore assert that there is no ‘prayer’ in the conventional sense altogether. Why do you not consider the possibility that there is no intention by the Quran to give you a pedantic form or content (utterance)? There is also no directive in the Quran for you to pray in Arabic, or assign specific rakats (albeit it may make logistical sense in a congregation). However, this does not mean that there is no prayer.
by Quasim Hamdani
I am sure we all agree that praying is encouraged in the Quran even thou no particular form or method is prescribed. I find praying to be an intellectual exercise where we connect with Allah without time and space - all we have to do is close our eyes and sense the presence of Allah.
I am not convinced that Salaat in the Quran only refers to praying. Many translators of the Quran are inclined to use certain dictionaries of Quranic Arabic and reject the others. This will always cause differences in the explanation of the Quran.
I am also convinced that the Quran can not be translated. The best we can do is to explain it in a given language. The Quran is written in the very specific Quraish dialect of Arabic. This is the dialect that the Prophet spoke. I think the use of Arabic dictionaries that are far removed from the Quraish dialect will produce differing explanations.
We can not pick a verse in the Quran and discuss it ad nauseam. The Quran explains a concept in many different ways throughout the book, so any discussion needs to employ Tasreef and stay with the big picture that the Quran is conveying.
Nit picking on words and phrases does not educate anyone. Try to convey the whole meaning.
I find that QXP does a good job of conveying the big picture, it adheres to the Quraish dialect dictionaries, employs Tasreef, and challenges the established orthodoxy of academics.
No one has convinced me so far that Salaat does not mean to follow the Quran.
by jawaid ahmed
Please note where the proposed rituals come, at the end of a long understanding that Salat is to follow the Divine Commands of the Quran. To follow someone closely is to listen to what they say and do this. A teacher in the school explains things and tests you on what he says, not on how he said them or how and where you were sitting in the class. Likewise, by following the Quran, implementing it personally and within society, is the only salat required of us.
Parwez’s explanation is that at the end of the day, if you want to express your sincere thanks to Allah for giving us the environment to better ourselves and humanity, you are free to do this in any way you want, but He did not advocate any physical expression of this, nor any words repeated any number of times: He is All-Knowing and does not need the Quran repeated multiple times a a day just for the sake of repetition.
By Saba Sheikh
I am not sure if I agree with your interpretation of G.A. Parwez’s argument as posted by brother Arnold.If I understand your argument to be that the 'salat' is following the Quran and implementing it, then this would also automatically include remembering God as well (as you are following the Quran.)
Then why is salat separated from 'Dhikr' in verse 29:45 by saying 'waladhikru l-allahi akbaru' (Remberance is greatest) if salat included 'Dhikr' anyway?
Also, I find some overlaps between your argument "but He did not advocate any physical expression of this, nor any words repeated any number of times" with brother Joseph's argument in this thread where he also says that the Quran does not describe, and I quote "pedantic ‘form’ and ‘utterance’ (what to say in your prayers)".
So all this infatuation with praying in Arabic, repeating the Quran back to God, fixed form of rakat's and utterance, are 'ritualised' with no proof from the Quran. Where I think you both differ is that you conclude that there is 'no' requirement from your Quranic studies, whereas brother Joseph feels there 'is' requirement for prayer given his Quranic studies (PS: Brother Joseph, please clarify if I've understood you position incorrectly).
by jawaid ahmed
Zikr = Reflection = Remembrance = Observation = Reminder = Remembrance = Commemoration = Raise in degrees = Celebrate = Magnify = Give eminence = Taking to heart = Keeping in mind.Bearing in mind all the meanings of Zikr, read verse 29:45 in context, starting even further back to what I am going to show here for the sake of brevity, and you will see that Allah is telling us that wrong systems, injustice, tyranny, exploitation etc are detrimental to our wellbeing. It goes on to state that there is definite order in the universe which is a result of the laws that Allah laid down at the beginning, and this should enable us to utilise the Allah given resources for our benefit. It clearly states that only in the Quran, what is revealed in this Book, can we get out of any mess we find ourselves in.
This Zikr, remembrance, of Allah, only makes sense when we remember what is in the Quran and act according to it. Anything else, for example, like the Sufis do by chanting Allah, Allah, Allah a thousand times a day, is making a mockery of themselves and a mockery of their understanding of the Quran. Likewise, we hear that we have to keep remembering Allah five times a day by doing prayers, but does this benefit the person in any way? If it helps us emotionally at times of stress, then do these prayers not have the same effects as the prayers of the Christians, Jews, the Hindus, who likewise derive support from these?
I believe that it is only by doing right acts that benefit humanity that any reward from Allah will be forthcoming, and praying does not give us this. It is relying on or expecting Allah to help us when He has stated that we must help ourselves by using what He has given us; Nature and Revelation.
29:39 And such is the story of Qaroon (Korah) and Pharaoh and Hamaan! (They represented wealth, tyranny and priesthood, respectively that go hand in hand in exploiting people.) To them had come Moses with all evidence of the Truth, but they remained arrogant in the land. And certainly, they could not escape. [28:6, 28:76]
29:40 For, every one of them We took to task for trailing behind in human virtue. And so, upon some of them We let loose a hurricane, some of them were overtaken by a sudden blast, some of them We caused to be swallowed by the earth, and some of them We caused to drown. And it was not God Who wronged them, but it was they who wronged themselves. [The Law of Requital never discriminates between people, whether individuals or nations]
29:41 The likeness of those who choose patrons other than God, is that of the spider which makes for itself a house. And, behold, the frailest of all houses is the spider’s house, if they would make use of what they know. [Its web easily traps the weak but cannot withstand the least bit of pressure]
29:42 Surely, God knows whatever they call upon instead of Him – for, He is Almighty, Wise.
29:43 And such are the examples We cite for mankind, but only men and women of science will make best use of their intellect.
[‘Aalim = Scientist = A knowledgeable person. 30:22-23, 35:27-28. “There is a coherent plan in the universe, though I don't know what it's a plan for.” - British astronomer, author, Sir Fred Hoyle]
29:44 (It is they who can best understand that) God has created the heavens and the earth with a definite Purpose. Surely, in this is a sign for those who wish to attain conviction in the Truth.
29:45 (O Prophet) convey to people all that is revealed to you of the Book, and establish the Divine System. For, certainly, establishment of the Divine System will shut off lewdness, stinginess and behavior contrary to the Permanent Values. This is so, because God’s Law is the Greatest Law that can give you eminence. And God knows whatever you people contrive on your own. [21:10, 21:24, 23:70, 43:43-44, 70:21-27. Fahasha includes miserliness, and Munkar is all behavior that goes against Permanent Values given in the Qur’an]
29:46 (The Divine System will be the Living Truth in itself, so) argue not with the People of the Scripture except in a most kind manner. Tell those who adamantly relegate the Truth, “We believe in what has been bestowed upon us, as well as (the Truth in) what has been bestowed upon you. For, our God and your God is One, and to Him we surrender.” [2:79, 2:101. Zulm = To relegate the Truth = Displace something from its rightful place = Oppression = Violation of human rights = Wrongdoing]
29:47 And thus it is! We have bestowed this Book upon you (O Prophet). And many of those whom We gave the previous Scriptures will come to believe in it (5:48). Also, many of your people will believe in it. And none could knowingly reject Our messages except such as would preemptively reject an obvious Truth
by Joseph Islam
Looking at your response to sister Saba, it seems you are basing your arguments on the verse renditions that you yourself are providing.I read and study directly from the Arabic. I do not recognise the following highlighted areas in the English rendition that you have provided.
29:45 (There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world. Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.) (O Rasool!) Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others. And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27) This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws.And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do.
I put to you a simple question. How can one discuss anything with a view to posit a possible alternative, more cogent argument when you are basing your views on verse renditions which do not exist in the Arabic?
How can those readers who rely on the rendition you have provided tell the difference between what is 'translated' and what is 'interpolated' into the text?
by jawaid ahmed
29:45. Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that you do.
Most people know that direct word for word translations of the Quran would render it incomprehensible. What you have is the translators understanding of the verses, in context and in accordance with other verses that have the same words. It is simply a rendition of the Quran based on their knowledge.The word Salat is not prayers; the closest word for this would be Dua and even then the real meaning of this is not praying but doing things in accordance with the laws of Allah. Hence, we have an understanding of the verse presented as I have given in the above by G Parwez, and by Dr Shabbir Ahmed:-
29:45 (O Prophet!) convey to people all that is revealed to you of the Book, and establish the Divine System. For, certainly, establishment of the Divine System will shut off lewdness, stinginess, and behavior contrary to the Permanent Values. This is so, because God’s law is the Greatest law that can give you eminence. And God knows whatever you people contrive on your own. [21:10, 21:24, 23:70, 43:43-44, 70:21-27. Fahasha includes miserliness, and Munkar is all behavior that goes against Permanent Values given in the Qur’an]
As Salawat = Divine System
by Joseph Islam
"Most people know that direct word for word translations of the Quran would render it incomprehensible. What you have is the translators understanding of the verses, in context and in accordance with other verses that have the same words. It is simply a rendition of the Quran based on their knowledge"
The only way we can truly remain consistent with an ancient text is to translate the words as closely as possible and not 'interpolate' theological positions into it.
Tacitly inserting 'interpolations' into a text only makes the matter worse. Also, it misleads readers who do not know Arabic.
Please provide me evidence from any notable classical text or any Bedouin Arab in the desert that may exist that tells you that salawaat / salat in the context of the Quran = Divine system and not prayer. Claims are not admissible evidence. One asks for verifiable proof.
However, I note the translation from G. Parwez does use the word prayer and remains very consistent with the Quranic Arabic as opposed to the second rendition that you have provided. Why is there such a dichotomy between the two?
I find G.Parwez's rendition of this verse very agreeable with the Quranic text. Anyone comparing the two translations will note major differences. For example, where is the Arabic "wa-ldhikru-lahi akbaru" in the second rendition which G. Parwez correctly translates as "and remembrance of Allah is the greatest".
As I don't generally recognise a lot of the interpolations that have been 'inserted' into the renditions of the Arabic you provide, I cannot see how we can continue the debate, unless you provide me clear evidence.
by jawaid ahmed,
Thank you for your comments to my post.24:41
Alam tara anna Allaha yusabbihu lahu man fee alssamawati waal-ardi waalttayru saffatin kullun qad AAalima salatahu watasbeehahu waAllahu AAaleemun bima yafAAaloona
Yusuf Ali
24:41
Seest thou not that it is God Whose praises all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate, and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread? Each one knows its own (mode of) prayer and praise. And God knows well all that they do.
I would draw your attention to the above translation by Y.Ali who puts prayer for the word Salat. You wrote the following which includes 17:44:-
{All the verse informs us is the fact that creatures of God have a form of prayer and glorification. In another verse, God expands that it is clear that humans have not been given the capacity to understand their methods of glorification.
017.044
“The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet you understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!”}
I believe this verse reinforces my belief that Salat is not a ritualised prayer but adhering to what Allah has prescribed for us. The heavens and the earth, all and sundry, are obeying the natural laws that Allah gave them; objects fall due to gravity, light travels in straight lines except when acted upon by a body, fish swim, birds fly, etc. The ‘glory’ they are declaring and the ‘praises’ they are celebrating are nothing remotely like the prayers we are told we must do, but doing what they are programmed to do. A tree does shout hallelujah to thank Allah for being there, but is there due to the universal gift of Rahman [the capacity to Create from nothing], and Raheem [the capacity to sustain life]. This can only be a harmonious existence if you ‘obey’ what you are told/programmed:-
Y. ALI
13:2 God is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.
Dr Shabbir :
13:2 Allah it is Who raised the heavens without pillars visible to you. Then upon the Throne of His Almightiness He assumed Supreme Control of the entire Universe. He commited the sun and the moon to be of service, each running to an appointed term. He keeps Order in the Universe and He explains His Messages in detail, so that you may be sure of meeting with your Lord. (Studying the Book of Nature will bring mankind closer to their Lord). [Until recently the sun was thought to be stationary, but today we know that the sun, along with Solar System, is moving toward the "Constellation of Hercules," also known as the "Solar Apex", at a speed of 150 miles per second.]
When we do what the Quran says, we are gloryfying Allah in this way and not by doing prayers which are repeating words back to Him which He gave to us! Submission is not bending our necks to a ‘King God’, but following His Commands enshrined in the Quran.
13:15
Walillahi yasjudu man fee alssamawati waal-ardi tawAAan wakarhan wathilaluhum bialghuduwwi waal-asali
And before God bow, willingly or unwillingly, all beings that are in the heavens and earth, as do their shadows in the mornings and evenings. [3:82, 41:11]
Sujood is not physically bowing but following what they ‘know’. They are in the 'know', and so are we when we act upon the Quranic values.
by jawaid ahmed
My apologies for not responding to the list of “allusionary” [illusionary?] verses from the Quran. Here are my comments on some of them which was given to someone else on Ourbeacon forum who had the same list. Please note I have used Dr Shabir’s translation, not my own rendition.Please also visit
http://quranicteachings.org/
This has a plethora of words/verse etc that are defined Quranically.
I went through your list which has some surprising quotes to ‘prove’ prayers, which I believe shows that there is no such clear verse telling us to do so.
The details of ablution (4:43; 5:6)
4:43 (Those who attain belief shall promptly establish the Divine System in the community, and the Masjid would assume the role of the community center. The believers will assemble in the Masjid for prayer, and to address social welfare and community action). O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Join not the Salaat congregation if your mind is beclouded for any reason, until you understand what you utter, else you might say senseless words that disturb the assembly. Physical cleanliness contributes to moral purity. So, take a bath after ceremonial impurity (post-coital state) If you are traveling, or are ill, or coming from the privy, and cannot find water, take a little clean sand or earth and lightly rub your faces and hands, before entering the Masjid. (This will help you prepare psychologically for the assembly (5:6). God pardons and absolves your imperfections.
But we see that ablution is required prior to communal Salat, which needs defining:-
29:44 (It is they who can best understand that) God has created the heavens and the earth with a definite Purpose. Surely, in this is a sign for those who wish to attain conviction in the Truth.
29:45 (O Prophet) convey to people all that is revealed to you of the Book, and establish the Divine System. For, certainly, establishment of the Divine System will shut off lewdness, stinginess and behaviour contrary to the Permanent Values. This is so, because God’s Law is the Greatest Law that can give you eminence. And God knows whatever you people contrive on your own. [21:10, 21:24, 23:70, 43:43-44, 70:21-27. Fahasha includes miserliness, and Munkar is all behaviour that goes against Permanent Values given in the Qur’an]
Communal Salat should be about undersatanding the Quran and putting it into practice, in other words:-
“In the first Surah (Al-F'atiha) of the Quran, a Momin is taught to ask of Allah to guide him to Sira't-Al-Mustaqeem (and that, in fact, should be a Momin's purpose of life - to tread the Sira't-Al-Mustaqeem all along - the straight and the balanced path) and in the eleventh Surah (Hud) it is stated that Allah continuously stays at Sira't-Al-Mustaqeem. It transpires from the above that the only straight path a Momin is required to adopt during the course of his life, is the same at which Allah Almighty Himself is going and running this universe. This path can easily be adopted by closely and steadfastly following the dictates of Allah's Book, i.e., the Holy Quran. Hence the basic meaning of Sal'at is complete concordance with the Book of Allah and thereby incorporating in one's own self Allah's most balanced Attributes, of course, as far as is humanly possible.”
A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the ‘believers’ (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
2:149 From wherever you start forth (whichever way you proceed, and whatever you are preoccupied with), keep yourself focused on the Masjid-il-Haraam (the Sacred Masjid, the Ultimate Center for the unity of all mankind.) This is indeed the Truth from your Lord. And God is not unmindful of what you do (with your life).
2:150 Again, regardless of wherever you are and whichever way you are proceeding, you must keep yourself focused on the Masjid-il-Haraam (the Center for all humanity). If you abide by (this Command) it will leave no grounds for people to dispute against you except the unjust fault-finders among them. Hence, be not intimidated by them, but stand in awe of Me so that I may perfect My Grace upon you, and that you may be rightly guided.
[2:6, 5:2-3. The blessed results of Unity in diversity will become a living witness to their objections]
2:151 To this end, We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, conveying unto you Our revelations and helping you grow in goodness. And he empowers you with the knowledge of the Book and Wisdom, and thus, he teaches you what you knew not.
2:152 Therefore, raise My Name and I shall raise your name giving you eminence! Be grateful to Me, and deny Me not!
Qiblah is not a compass point, but a ‘direction’ that the Ummah should be directing itself towards, and verse 2:151 tells us that this is making us the best of peoples by following the Quran.
Garments (7:26; 24:31; 33:59)
7:26 O Children of Adam! We have provided you with garments to cover your bodies as well as to adorn you. The best garment for you to wear, in addition, is good conduct. (Your character decorates you inside out.) These are the verses of God that they must take to heart.
The above verse and the others quoted are about decent dress codes, not about prayers. The best dress is righteousness, so no matter how you cover up, nikaq etc, if your thought are dirty then you will not achieve anything.
Allusion of times: (4:103; 11:114; 17:78; 24:58; 30:18; 2:238: 20:58)
Allusion is the appropriate term here, as there is no specific timings for a “contact prayer” in the Quran. Look at:-
11:114 Strive to establish and consolidate the Divine System, DAY AND NIGHT. Actions that create balance in the society remove the ill effects of inequities. Good deeds remove bad deeds. This is a reminder for those who pay attention.
Day and night means your whole life, not specific times.
17:78 You shall commit yourself to reflect on the Divine Commands before sunrise and then carry on with your program until the darkness of night prevails. The Qur’an springs forth the Light for you to brighten your way. The Dawn ushered in by the Qur’an will be self-evident to all. Its likeness is the Dawn that brings light after a dark night. [42:38]
No ritualised prayers but thinking, based on the Quran, about what you are about to do in the daytime.
24:58 (Your social mannerism begins at home.) O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Let your servants and children who have not yet come of age ask your permission before coming in to see you on three occasions: Before you engage in your assignments at dawn, at noon when you are resting with light clothes, and after you have completed your assignments at night. These are your three times of privacy. At other times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about freely, attending to one another. In this way, God makes clear to you the revelations, for, God is All Knowing, Wise.
A private time when you may be relaxing or resting is not a time for praying!
That prayers must be observed on time (4:103)
4:103 Be mindful of God’s Commands whatever state you are in, standing, sitting or lying down. And when you are once again secure, establish the congregations of Salaat. Joining the congregations of Salaat at the times appointed by the Central Authority is a duty unto believers.
If you are sitting, lying, standing then BE MINDFUL of what you have learnt from the Quran. It is not a requirement to stand up, fall flat on your face and turn your head left and right! Joining Salat is a communal gathering, a council, a parliament.
Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the ‘Believers (Mu’mins) heir own Q'iblah (2:145)
2:145 Even if you were to place all evidence (verses) together to the People of the Book, they will not follow your Qiblah, and neither may you follow their Qiblah, nor will they even follow each other’s Qiblah. If you followed their errant views after the knowledge has come to you, you will surely be among the wrongdoers.
[Qiblah = Direction = Focal Point = It is the tangible structure for unity of mankind. People honor the temples of their choice. They will recognize the Ka’bah as their own Qiblah when evolution of human civilization brings them to the right conclusion. 2:158, 3:97, 4:170,
6:84-91, 22:23-28]
Jews follow their Bible and Talmud, the Christians follow their Gospels, and they will not follow the Quran.
Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4:102; 48:29)
13:15 And before God bow, willingly or unwillingly, all beings that are in the heavens and earth, as do their shadows in the mornings and evenings. [3:82, 41:11]
The word “yasjudu” means bowing or prostrating and this then throws up the question as to exactly how they are bowing. The “shadows” prostrate by moving according to the movement of the Sun. They are doing so only in accordance with the laws of optics which has light travelling in a straight line and not being able to travel through opaque materials and hence shadows are formed. The shadow has no say in what it does or where it goes but is produced by and “follows” the Sun. This is further clarified by:-
22:18 Do you not see that whoever is in the heavens and on earth, the sun and the moon, the stars and the mountains, the trees, the animals, and a great many of human beings adore God? And there are a great many human beings who make themselves worthy of Requital. And those whom the God shall disgrace, none can raise to honor. For, God works according to His Laws.
The moon does not do prostration like us or says three “rakahs”! This bowing is not bending itself but actually means following the laws that were assigned to it by Allah. The moon follows its course around the earth and does not deviate from this unless acted upon by some other force. The laws of Allah are the natural physical laws of the universe and everything within it acts according to these laws. Objects fall down to earth due to gravity, they heat up due to the thermo-nuclear heat of the Sun and they hurt when you hit your head on them! They follow what they are “commanded” to do, according to:
There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (2:238)
2:238 (While describing some important marital Laws), it is reiterated that, your Central Duty remains the guarding of the System in which individuals and families can develop their potentials to the maximum. Stay alert in obedience to God.
There is a general form to prayer (2:238-39).
2:238 (While describing some important marital Laws), it is reiterated that, your Central Duty remains the guarding of the System in which individuals and families can develop their potentials to the maximum. Stay alert in obedience to God.
2:239 Whether fear threatens you from without, or you are strolling, riding, relaxing in peace, remember God as He has taught you (the Right and Wrong) that you did not know. [3:3,3:190-191, 4:103]
Again, this is general talk about your situation, not instructions to do a ritual prayer. I do not think that you stroll, run and relax in contact prayers, do you?
Standing position (3:39; 4:102)
4:102 When you (O Messenger) are with them and establish the congregations of Salaat for them, let some of them stand with you, and let them take their arms. Then, after they have received all instructions, let them fall to the rear and let another party come that has not received instructions. Let them take precautions and their arms. The disbelievers want you to neglect your arms and your baggage that they may attack you once for all. There is no harm for you to lay aside your arms if rain impedes you or if you are ill. But take all possible precaution. Certainly, God has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating chastisement.
“Stand with you means” they were supporting the Prophet and taking instructions from him.
Bowing down and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29)
See Sujood above for what is prostrating.
Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239)
See above.
A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (62:9)
62:9 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! When the call for Salaat is announced on the Day of the Congregation, hasten to the remembrance of God and leave your commerce. That is for your own good if you use your knowledge to understand
When the community calls you for debate or consultation or education, go!
A warning not to abandon prayer as was done by people before (19:58-59) but to establish prayer (Numerous references)
The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6:162; 20:14)
Read and understand the Quran is remembering Allah.
Prayer involves utterance (4:43)
4:43 (Those who attain belief shall promptly establish the Divine System in the community, and the Masjid would assume the role of the community center. The believers will assemble in the Masjid for prayer, and to address social welfare and community action). O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Join not the Salaat congregation if your mind is beclouded for any reason, until you understand what you utter, else you might say senseless words that disturb the assembly. Physical cleanliness contributes to moral purity. So, take a bath after ceremonial impurity (post-coital state) If you are traveling, or are ill, or coming from the privy, and cannot find water, take a little clean sand or earth and lightly rub your faces and hands, before entering the Masjid. (This will help you prepare psychologically for the assembly (5:6). God pardons and absolves your imperfections.
The verse is saying that you should know what you are saying before you open your mouth!
The purpose to protect from sins (29:45)
29:45 (O Prophet) convey to people all that is revealed to you of the Book, and establish the Divine System. For, certainly, establishment of the Divine System will shut off lewdness, stinginess and behavior contrary to the Permanent Values. This is so, because God’s Law is the Greatest Law that can give you eminence. And God knows whatever you people contrive on your own. [21:10, 21:24, 23:70, 43:43-44, 70:21-27. Fahasha includes miserliness, and Munkar is all behavior that goes against Permanent Values given in the Qur’an]
Read, understand and follow the Quran keeps you away from sins!
What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4:101)
Garments and mention of a Masjid, or a place of prayer 7:31
7:31 O Children of Adam! Subservience and obedience to the Divine Commands ensures for you adornment and nice things in life. So enjoy God’s Bounties, but do not commit excesses. God does not love the wasters.
The tone of prayer (17:110)
17:106 With the Qur’an which We have gradually unfolded, so that you might convey it to mankind by stages. Indeed, We have sent it down step by step, as one Revelation.
17:107 Say, "Believe in it or do not believe in it." Those who possess knowledge from the previous Scriptures, when it is recited to them, they fall down to their chins, prostrating." [Zaqan = Chin, and not face]
17:108 They say, "Glory be to our Lord. Surely, the Promise of our Lord has been fulfilled."
17:109 And so they fall down on their chins, weeping, and increasing in humility.
17:110 Say, "Call upon Allah, or call unto the Beneficent, to Him belong the best names. By whichever name you call Him, His are all the best attributes of perfection. And do not be too loud in your call to the Divine System, nor speak in a voice too low, but follow a way in between.
17:111 And say, "All Praise is due to God Who never begot a son, nor does He have a partner in His Kingdom, nor does He need any ally out of weakness." And thus, extol His limitless Greatness. [Establish His Supremacy on earth with all magnificence, as it is in the entire Universe. 9:33, 74:3]
Speak to people about the Quran in the most pleasing of ways to attract them to its message!
Prayer to include scripture (73.1-4)
73:1 O You (Prophet) the great selector of companions, the best caravan leader!
73:2 Stay vigilant even by night, and never fall short on it -
[As Head of the State the Prophet is responsible for arranging peace and security for all citizens (17:79, 76:26). ‘Illa’ here, as in many other verses, represents ‘never’, and not ‘except’ (11:107-108, 55:33, 87:6-7) "Al-Manar" vol 1. pg 414]
73:3 Half of it, or a little less.
73:4 Or, you shall increase it whenever warranted. And convey the Qur’an in a calm distinctive manner, stage by stage.
Self explanatory.
There is a leader of prayer (4:102)
All gatherings have a "head", leader, Prime Minister etc.!!!!!
by Joesph Islam
You assert 'surprising quotes to ‘prove’ prayers' and then you again provide me renderings which I cannot find in the Arabic text.Here is an example:
4:43 (Those who attain belief shall promptly establish the Divine System in the community, and the Masjid would assume the role of the community center. The believers will assemble in the Masjid for prayer, and to address social welfare and community action). O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Join not the Salaat congregation if your mind is beclouded for any reason, until you understand what you utter, else you might say senseless words that disturb the assembly. Physical cleanliness contributes to moral purity. So, take a bath after ceremonial impurity (post-coital state) If you are traveling, or are ill, or coming from the privy, and cannot find water, take a little clean sand or earth and lightly rub your faces and hands, before entering the Masjid. (This will help you prepare psychologically for the assembly (5:6). God pardons and absolves your imperfections.
Where are the highlighted words in the Arabic? What kind of assembly is this in which one requires such cleanliness? I have never known any community centre that requires this level of ritual cleanliness or why it would be deemed appropriate. With respect, not only do I find your rendering unacceptable, I also find unacceptable the conclusions you draw from them.
You say:
2:239 Whether fear threatens you from without, or you are strolling, riding, relaxing in peace, remember God as He has taught you (the Right and Wrong) that you did not know. [3:3,3:190-191, 4:103]
Again, this is general talk about your situation, not instructions to do a ritual prayer. I do not think that you stroll, run and relax in contact prayers, do you?
With respect, you have completely missed the essence of the verse if you read the Arabic clearly. The main purport of the verse makes it clear that form can be abandoned but prayer cannot.
If Salat = Divine system, why is it being abandoned here until they are 'secure / safe' (amintum)?
One question from me: amintum is not only secure, safe , it means also to believe, we should 'amanu' and 'amilu', i.e. Believe and do.
A divine system surely is a 24/7 system and not restricted to certain times of the day or something which can be abandoned in certain conditions.
Maybe this article may help with an understanding of this verse.
PRAY AS WE HAVE TAUGHT YOU HOW TO PRAY - USING VERSE 2.239 AS SUPPORT FOR A FIXED FORM OF PRAYER
http://quransmessage.com/articles/pray%20as%20we%20have%20taught%20you%20how%20to%20pra...
Jawaid, with all due respect, if you take a step back and re-read your whole post explaining the 'Divine system', surely you can see that it simply doesn't fit. Whereas if you kept the meaning of 'salat' = prayer and re-read the Arabic text, you will see it fits if the verses are understood properly. That is why one can understand the need for Wudu, Qiblah, garments, tone, etc etc.
I don't think we are ever going to be able to agree as our differences are not only theological they go to the crux of our approach of understanding the Quran. Nor do I feel it fruitful to go through each of your renditions. In my opinion, you are concluding on verse renditions which I find do not exist in the Arabic text.
by Quasim Hamdani
The argument being put forth is this."The term al-musalli as a reference of the ‘one that follows next after the foremost’ applies only in the context of a horse in a race and only because the location of the horses ‘sallan’. This is well known to Arabic. This is not the context in which the Quran uses it."
by jawaid ahmed
Words with the same root cannot be interchanged, they have distinct meanings, but in order to understand one word we can look at all the words from the same root and come to an understanding of what it means. That is what Parwez did in his Lughaat under the heading Salat. We cannot say that Salat means to race along but we can readily deduce that we must closely follow what Allah has revealed to us and that is not what is being undertaken in the ritual prayers; not even in the jumma khutbas which should be more like reading verses of the Quran in order to understand them so that everyone knows what they should be doing.by Quasim Hamdani
I completely agree with you. At the same time Salaat does encompass prayer / praying.I also agree with Brother Joseph Islam that the Quran does not define a form for praying because prayer does not need form.
by jawaid ahmed
It is called progressive Revelation for the very purpose of reforming society in small but positive ways. Moses spent 40years in the “wilderness” reforming the most unreformable people, and Abraham tried for years to get his father and his community to stop idolatry; it takes time and the right ‘keys’ to unlock the deaf, dumb and blind, indoctrinated ancestor worshippers. As you learn one new thing it opens the way to something else, always progressive evolution of minds and then society.When slavery was abolished by the Quran in Arabia 1400 years ago, the people had already been told that all mankind was one, worthy of dignity and respect, and then the command came not to enslave captured prisoners but release them. This also went hand in hand with the release of their existing slaves. Little or no loss of life occurred at that time and compare this with the American civil war and the abolishment of slavery there [over 1 million dead].
The Quran worked at that time to reform society; it took the most pagan of cultures and made them the best ambassadors for mankind. They were engaged in continually learning the Quran; one quote I have read is that early Muslims learnt 10 verses of the Quran which they fully understood and knew how to act upon them, then they would move onto the next 10 verses. It is only by studying the Quran that are you able to judge what is right and wrong with people, what you should be doing to help yourself and your fellow man. Instead, a means of “communication” with Allah is set up five times a day, or at any time, when He has no need of this, neither do we since He has already completed His Revelation, His Words to man, in the Quran. All the other “I feel better for praying” or “it gives me spirituality” etc etc etc, is pagan, sufi, ascetic nonsense that dominates the world’s religions, bringing no benefit to society.
Salat is, reading, understanding and implementing the Quran individually and within society [Salat is always plural in the Quran?] in order to ESTABLISH a just social system and is the only understanding that makes sense; prayers fail time and again to be ‘fulfilled’ by Allah, why? Because you are not making your life better by establishing Salat, but doing pooja, namaz, three hail Mary’s!!!!!!
6:151 Say, "Come, let me convey to you what your Sustainer has enjoined upon you as a sacred duty: i - Associate none with Him. ii - Honour your parents, do good to them, fulfil their needs. iii - Neither kill your children for fear of poverty nor deprive them of proper training and education. We provide for you and for them. (The Divine System will take care of your needs and their needs.) iv - Do not go near immodesty or lewdness whether openly or in secret. v - Do not slay a life, life that God has made sacred except in the course of justice. THIS HE HAS COMMANDED YOU SO THAT YOU USE REASON AND OBEY THESE COMMANDS.”
by Joseph Islam
You said:"Instead, a means of “communication” with Allah is set up five times a day, or at any time, when He has no need of this, neither do we since He has already completed His Revelation, His Words to man, in the Quran. All the other “I feel better for praying” or “it gives me spirituality” etc etc etc, is pagan, sufi, ascetic nonsense that dominates the world’s religions, bringing no benefit to society"
With all due respect Jawaid, we need to stop viewing the Quranic salaat through the lens of the collective ritualised prayers of the present day Muslims which you so emphatically refer to as 'pooja or namaz'. I feel that you continue to understand the Quranic 'salaat' and judge it through the lens of present day Muslims. This conversation has long moved on and is getting unnecessarily repetitive.
How you can assert that "you are not making your life better by establishing Salat", I simply cannot comprehend. Personally, it has transformed my life and purpose. This is something only I know along with my Creator and those around me. If prayer is performed properly and not in a ritualised manner, it can nurture the soul and the collective psyche of the Ummah. Prayer has to have a meaning and purpose backed up with actions (and not empty, incomprehensible words) and these facets need to be understood. Prayer is also not about the selfish ‘ana’ (I, me) or what good is it doing for me from ones own limited understanding. No one can understand the mind of the Creator and how He manifests His mercy. We can only ask of Him.
002:186
"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me..."
040.060
"And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer): but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in humiliation!""
Respectfully and please do trust me, though it has been the source of much deliberation, nothing in your argument addresses my central queries for me to persuasively accept your understanding. It simply does not represent ‘bayyin’ (clear proof / evidence). Nor have you once addressed my pointed questions with regards your English renditions of the Quranic verses from which you draw your conclusions.
As I have noted you to quote G Parwez in our discussions when you have deemed it necessary, I prefer the understanding of a site that claims to represent the understanding of G. Parwez, rather than your own interpretation of it.
"We have seen that according to its root meaning, Salaat is a system and not a ritual. Prayer (performed five times a day) is only a component of Salaat. Within this system, prayer is a powerful and effective means of achieving the Quranic goals mentioned earlier. Outside the system, however, it becomes a soulless ritual repeated solely for getting rewards in the hereafter"
"Praying five times a day is only one part of Salaat. When we finish our prayers in the Masjid, we are not done with Salaat. It is not something to do and finish. It involves every aspect of life, keeping it within the guidelines of the Divine Code twenty-four hours a day. And this has to be done within a system under a central authority according to the Qur’an"
http://www.parvez-video.com/insight/islam/prayers/index.asp
Today's prayer has become ritualised. This is something I have always accepted. But to say prayer does not exist is a gross misinterpretation of the Quran in my opinion.
You and I will simply have to agree to disagree.
by jawaid ahmed
“If prayer is performed properly and not in a ritualised manner, it can nurture the soul and the collective psyche of the Ummah.”I would appreciate a clear definition or statement on exactly what prayer involves for you, what you do, what you believe Allah does for you, so that I can better understand your point of view.
I have stated my belief that Salat is to do with following the Quran, etc, based on the nine or so definitions of the root of Salat given by Parwez, before he eventually put the ‘prayer’ explanation.
E.g. 3. According to Taj, Salea Wastala means attachment, to remain stuck. From this reference Raghib says that verse (74/43), "We were not Musalleen," means that they did not follow the Rusul. Accordingly Qurtabi also writes that Sal'at would mean to remain within the bounds of the Laws of Allah, and Tasleah means to walk behind a person so closely that there remains no distance; not to surpass him but remain closely behind.
In other words, 90% of our time should be spent on establishing the Quran and then this can be naturally exhibited in some form of personal act or thought. But we need the basics first!
PS, the proof you want is there in the natural order of the universe. Gravity, birds, everything is doing what they are ‘programmed’ to do. Man is capable of going against his instincts, and when he does so he loses out. The Quran came to correct the wrong acts and beliefs; to give regulations, moral guidance, a ‘balance’ to our characters. The Wisdom came in the form of the Quran, not the “you will be told how to get out of trouble with a prayer”!
2:38-39 When Man lost his blissful life, he was told, “Do not be despondent. We shall send you Our Guidance through Our Rusul (7/35) and those who will order their lives in accordance therewith, will suffer no fear and sorrow (20/123-24). On the other hand, those who reject Our Guidance would lead a life of constant torment in this world and beyond.”
by Joseph Islam
If you want to know what my views on prayer are, you are free to visit my site and the following section.http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20FM3.htm
I have discussed my understanding comprehensively with my best understanding of the Arabic.
In response to your pointed question "what you believe Allah does for you", I believe He takes account of my prayer, my needs, and my best interests. I thank him unreservedly for this. Now let me contextualise for you how He takes account of it in my opinion.
God is NOT dependant on time nor does He exist 'in time' that He Himself has created. We exist in time. God transcends space, time and His creation. He is not dependant on the laws He himself has created. A lot of difficulties in our understandings are resolved if we remove God from our linear perception of time and space which He is not subject to. Many verses in the Quran indicate that He is in the past, present and future simultaneously and governs affairs from outside His universal creation.
When I pray, He took account of that prayer before the Universe was created and before He set his master-plan in action for me, for you and the Universe. I adore Him and I wish to worship Him as much as I can based on volition.
I also believe wholeheartedly in His word, the Quran and I find clear instructions which guide me on the best way to worship Him in terms of monotheistic prayer.
020.025-35
(Moses) said: "O my Lord! expand me my breast; Ease my task for me and remove the impediment from my speech, So they may understand what I say: And give me a Minister from my family, Aaron, my brother; Add to my strength through him, And make him share my task, That we may celebrate Thy praise without stint, And remember Thee without stint: For Thou art He that (ever) regardeth us."
020.036
(God) said: "Granted is thy prayer, O Moses!"
by jawaid ahmed
“People who have no hold over their process of thinking are likely to be ruined by liberty of thought. If thought is immature, liberty of thought becomes a method of converting men into animals.”Muhammad Iqbal
The clearest verse I have found to show you that prayers are not answered in the way you think they are:-
4:75 What has happened to you that you do not fight in the Cause of God? Defenceless men, women, and children are being oppressed and crying, "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors, and raise for us protectors and helpers." [God does not fight in person, or send His armies or angels physically. 22:39]
4:76 Believers fight in the Cause of God, that is, for the removal of tyranny and in self-defence (benign aggression). And the rejecters of the Truth fight in tyranny and for their selfish desire to oppress people (malignant aggression). So fight against those friends of Satan. Surely, Satan's plan is feeble because the selfish desire fails before the Divine Law of Requital.
Where was Allah when the innocent were being killed and oppressed? Why did He not answer their prayers and strike down with brimstone and treacle the oppressors, sending a clear message to all humanity that the last Messenger was in town and you should not mess with him? Why did Allah say that you should get up off your proverbial behinds and help them yourself? Why? Because Allah does not work the way we think He does. He does not act like an emotional Father Christmas figure, spreading goodness where he pleases and punishing others according to His whims. He has established a design in the universe which allows everything to succeed as long as they abide by the rules. Man, because of his nature, can go against these and he faces the consequences of his own actions.
Like Cat Stevens said, “pick up a good book” and I add, learn the ‘prayer’ of the Quran; each and every word, verse, and surah. Make it a part of your heart and mind and then Allah will be close to us and we will not need to "speak" to Him.
24:35 God is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His Light (the Qur’an) is that of a lamp that is placed inside a niche enclosed in glass that shines like a radiant star. This lamp is kindled from a blessed tree - olive - neither of the East nor of the West. Its Light issues forth in all directions. The oil glows by itself even though no fire has touched it. Light upon Light. God guides to His Light anyone who seeks Guidance. And God sets forth allegories for mankind. And God is Knower of all things. [God being Light = Life-giving, sustaining and guiding Power of the Universe. And Qur’an is the Light of God. 5:15, 20:51, 41:42, 42:52]
24:36 This Light-giving Lamp glows in houses that God has caused to be exalted, that His Name be celebrated in them. In them, He is Glory is extolled in the mornings and in the evenings. [The dwellers therein strive to raise His Name day and night]
24:37 (These are not the communities of monks but) they are such that neither trade nor sale can divert from the remembrance of God. They keep striving to consolidate the Divine System and set up the Just Economic Order of Zakaat in the society. They have awesome consciousness of the Day when hearts and eyes will be horrified. [50:20]
24:38 (They pray) That God may reward them for the best of what they did and increase for them His Bounty. God has designed Laws to provide sustenance beyond all reckoning. [2:261]
24:39 But as for those who reject the Message, their deeds are like a mirage in the desert. The thirsty one supposes it to be water till he comes unto it and finds nothing. However, he does meet God’s Law of Requital to compensate for his deeds. And God is Swift at taking account.
by jawaid ahmed
Please reflect on what is being said; no personal criticism was meant but the M.Iqbal quote summed up my understanding of what Salat encompasses, and what the world is doing in prayers.008.009
"When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank"
Who uses "ye" in language today? If your understanding of this is that lovely white winged angels descended down from heaven and attacked the enemy, then this is ridiculous. It is based on the Bible and the hordes of angelic beings surrounding the God/Gods/Trinity who fight amongst themselves and live lives like Greek gods! If that was the case, then why did they lose the second battle of Uhud?
From your responses you have just reproduced the traditional translations of the Quran based on hadith, the Bible, and Persian/Babylonian tales, completely ignoring the meaning of idioms, allegories etc., and being unable to sift out the real meaning of words from this jungle of corruption. You have failed to read into the meanings or reflect upon other verses that contradict your understanding of these. Traditional Arabic dictionaries are not perfect, you have to know how to find the truth from them and apply the words in a Quranic context.
You have the belief that you can have some sort of personal relationship with Allah, via prayers, which is contrary to Surah 112 and many other verses of the Quran. Again, this is based on the Christian concepts, of god the father and his sacrifice of his son for our sins, and how he takes care of us like a hen for her chicks! Show me where this hen was when the people of the city were crying out, as per my verse quote!
You have ignored the many verses I have quoted to show you that YOU have to get up and do something in order to achieve anything; relying on Allah to give you ‘spiritual’ comfort, or change a given situation, is a lazy mans/ascetics, doomed to failure solution.
By Joseph Islam
You have found a particular understanding which makes you sleep well. You are entitled to it. I have no problem with that.However, I also gave you clear verses which challenged your understanding. I find your theology lacking, without warrant and does nothing to reconcile the Quranic verses. Also in my opinion, your long copy and pastes from renditions which are in my view at times a poor reflection of the Quranic Arabic, do nothing but subvert the topic at hand.
With respect, I too feel you have ignored my repeated requests and my academic contentions with your renditions and theological juxtapositions you draw from them. For me you are simply using an alternative scripture.
You say:
"From your responses you have just reproduced the traditional translations of the Quran based on hadith, the Bible, and Persian/Babylonian tales, completely ignoring the meaning of idioms, allegories etc., and being unable to sift out the real meaning of words from this jungle of corruption"
Anyone who is remotely familiar with my humble efforts some of which also appear on my website will be well acquainted with the crux of my work which is based at times on seriously challenging traditional thinking and scholarship. It is geared to addressing the misconceptions of traditional Muslim thought going to the heart of the inherent weaknesses with Islamic Secondary Sources. It also addresses Biblical interpretations. I invite you cordially to see for yourself.
However, I am not prepared to accept what I feel is a flawed argument which I do not find compelling whether that is 'modern' or 'classical / traditional'. I base my judgments on clear proof and the best meaning of the verses (39:18). That is also what the Quran asks me to do.
So much unlike the theology and renditions of the Arabic that I feel you simply 'reproduce', I humbly endeavour to conclude on the most consistent interpretation based on my ardent study of the Quran which serve to reconcile all the Quranic verses with harmony.
If you feel like you want to have the last say on the post, you are most welcome. Please don't expect a further response from me to you on this thread. I don't know which part of my last statement you didn't understand.
"lakum dinukum waliya din"
by jawaid ahmed
My apologies for the confusion, I was trying to find a translation of verse 29:45 that was a simple rendition of the Arabic, without any author understandings put upon it and presented Yusuf Ali’s.The Exposition of the Quran by G Parwez in which the “prayer” wording has been presented is as follows:-
G Parwez
"29:45. (There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world. Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.)
(O Rasool!) Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others. And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27)
This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws. And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do."
As you can see this is consistent with Dr Shabir’s rendering and makes it abundantly clear that Salat does not mean any form of personal or ritualised praying.
By Joseph Islam
If you care to see the approach to my work you will note that I am highly critical of 'ancestral traditions'. My work is replete with criticisms against ‘traditional thinking’ and addressing misconceptions of Muslim thought.I am not like others who reject a Quranic directive due to their personal irreconcilable difficulties they may have with the Quranic narratives. A tradition is not incorrect just because it is a tradition. It is only incorrect if it is rebuked by the Quran. I find clear support for the practice of prayer not only directly from the Arabic but also from an analysis of the 'bigger picture'.
Also, I have not made any fantastic claims. I have only expressed my ability to directly access the Arabic Quran. Furthermore, irrespective of my background, I have never claimed any ‘titles’ unlike others that constantly advertise them.
by Quasim Hamdani,
If Salaat = prayer then the 'Muslim World' is right on the money. In muslim societies prayer are offered five time a day, there are Jumah (Congregational) prayers on Fridays, and many more occasions where prayers are offered. Today the muslim world is all about prayers. When global media shows muslims, what do they show? people praying.With all these prayers, muslims remain a people divided and despised. Muslims are killing each other, muslims are divided, the clergy (mullah) preach secondary sources and blatantly ignore the Quran. The Quran is not the foundation of political, financial, cultural, and social aspects of islamic societies.
Do we know what prayer is? Obviously the practice of prayer in vogue is not making muslims successful. I strongly believe that if we follow the Quran correctly and with the right intentions, we will realize the benefits and achieve our stated objectives.
If Salaat = follow the Quran or Salaat = Divine System, then establishing Salaat is action oriented, focused on creating a Quran-based reality for the humanity. It involves a struggle (Jihad) to create a paradise-like environment on this earth. This definition stitches together the purposes of Ramadan and Hajj into a holistic framework of establishing a divine order.
If Salaat = prayer then we can pray till the cows come home and not necessarily have to follow the Quran, on the other hand, if Salaat = follow the Quran then prayer are established in the larger context of creating a paradise on earth.
It is all a matter of which definition of Salaat we choose to accept.
By Joseph Islam
Prayer is an extremely personal connection with God which can penetrate the depths of one's current state of mind and emotions. Everyone's circumstances are undoubtedly different. A customised prayer suited for one's circumstance in a language that is 'understood' I feel is far more meaningful then a robotic 'ritual' prayer in a vernacular that is incomprehensible.I also find this as one of the many reasons behind why prayer may not be defined by the Quran. A Creator must know His creation and the diversity He has created within (30:22). How could a robotic 'ritual' prayer in a particular language ever be appropriate for such a diverse creation?
Furthermore, I don't find any categorical 'prescription' to recite the Quran as part of prayer. There are many narratives in the Quran which may not be arguably relevant for 'prayer' based recitation such as 2:222 or 9:5 for example. However, having said that the Quran is replete with beautiful timeless prayers, such as the ones you have mentioned and some of the ones I have noted here:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/quranic%20prayers%20FM3.htm
I also find beautiful prayers in the Bible which I personally make use of. The Pater Noster of the NT is one example and there are many others from the OT not least the Shema of Deuteronomy 6.
I firmly believe the Quran's silence allows for fluidity in prayer. After all, God hasn't created humans as automatons.
DO WE HAVE TO PRAY IN ARABIC?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/do%20we%20have%20to%20pray%20in%20arabic%20FM3.htm
by Mubashir
It is important to research all shades of meaning of the Word Salat. Salat the prayer has become, to me, a lifeless ritual which we offer and feel good about it. However if it is meant to be a tool to achieve an end (prevention of fuwahish and munkar) it may be working for a few individuals but is it in the Muslim communities around the world? Now I don't mean to throw the baby out with the bath water but only wish to learn how the Muslim world can use this tool to bring about meaningful results for others to see, feel and be influenced in a positive way. After all apart from Salat the Sytem, Salat the prayer has been stressed in Allah's Word.Just want to share what I exprerienced recently:
Today at the Masjid.
The Imam praised Allah for providing Muslims plenty of "excuses" to engage into worship and avail themselves of opportunities to earn sawwab. He particularly mentioned a special prayer during the latter part of the night (just before fajr) which earns one extra credits during the last 10 days leading to Eid. He quoted a hadees that says those who fast on the Day of Arafat (one day before Eid) gets his past one year's sins forgiven and not only that but also the sins for another year!!
We do read in the Qur'an that Allah says He created humans and jinns to worship Him [although a better translation perhaps would be to "serve" Him]. We also read that to prepare for life to come is infinitely more important than this worldly life.
There lies the crux of the matter. The Muslim community is obsessed with the hereafter and the fact that they have been created to worship Allah. Therefore, they do not care, or it does not bother them that they have been left far behind in their share of this world. They have been down in the ditch for centuries. While other nations are progressing to find cures of disease, inventions that benefit mankind and getting ready to explore the stars, Muslims are time and time again reminded of the hereafter and the value of rituals and the auspicious occasions during the year where extra prayers/fasts can be done to earn credits.
There is turmoil and serious unrest in Muslim countries and blood shed in Bahrain, Yemen, Libya. None of the other countries rank high in the quality of life, human rights, health care, fair economic opportunities, women's equality, and political stability. Is that worth dismissing as "worldly pursuits, hence not important?". I don't think so as is evident by those coming out protesting against unfair governments and getting killed and hurt every day.
Once, Muslims were leaders in all fields of ethics, science, technology, medicine, philosophy, social sciences, etc. but looks like hundreds of years ago they were led to believe that it is the hereafter they must worry about and "leave the world to those dogs that run after it".
Problem is that life cannot be based completely on the hereafter. People who live need human rights, health-care, access to free and fair justice, access to clean water, streets and a life of productive citizens doing their share to promote peace and a healthy and prosperous life. They need respect in the community of nations as a healthy productive participants that offer an alternative lifestyle that is balanced between life in this world and the life after death.
As usual the Khutbah was heavily dominated by ahadees because the logic is that the Apostle is the best person to learn about Islam and the best person to explain the Qur'an.
Late comers started offering Suna Salat while the Khutba was being delivered and I wonder, if Khutbah (the English part) is part of the Salat, what good it is to those who start praying in the middle of it??
Little wonder a trip to the mosque is pretty depressing for people who question and think. Rewarding of course, to blind followers coming back with the feeling of having earned more sawwab (credits).
by Mubashir
While we are researching the concept of Salat, in my web travels I found the following observation by Dr Kamal Omar. We may not agree with what is being said but it may be worth considering as a source of research material:The book of Allah is fully capable of wiping out these discrepancies and confusions created by sectarian man-written books. Al-Kitab which provides each and every detail about the system of Canonical Prayers directs the Believers to pick-up and adopt the offered Prayer from Muqam-o-Ibrahim (at Kaba). It is a tragedy that the word Mosallan (in 2/125) has not been understood or translated correctly. This word is a ‘past participle’ of the word which constructs the word Salat and means ‘the Prayer which has been offered’. Many related examples of such past-participles are available in the Text like one in relation to honey. Mosaffan
(47/15) means the honey which has been purified. It does not mean the place, site or land where honey is subjected to a process of purification.
Allah’s Book tells us in 17/77 that the format for offering the Canonical Prayers is an uninterrupted practical continuity as it is termed a Sunnah (legacy) of the Messengers from Adam to Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad is addressed in this Verse through the letter Kaf as Ka meaning ‘you’ or ‘thee’. The Imam who leads the ‘Prayers in congregation’ at Al-Masjid-al-Haram at Makka is the person who protects the format since the times of Adam to this day.
If we are really Believers and if we accept each and every Divine Statement in the Revealed Codex, there remains no ground whatsoever to breed any differences or discrepancies in any aspect of the act or format of Prayers. It is shameful to stick to these discrepancies under the ‘protective’ umbrellas termed ‘Hanafi format’, ‘Ahl-e-Hadees format’, ‘Barelvi format’, ‘Deobandi format’, ‘Jaferi format’ or ‘Ismaili format’. Allah’s statement in 2/125 can kill and bury such divisive tendencies at once.
Any body who wants to watch a practical demonstration of the act of Prayer is recommended to watch Imam-e-Kaba, either directly at Kaba or in T.V. telecasts or through a Video-tape. In the personality of Imam-e-Kaba we get a practical demonstration of the act; while all the directions and details are available within the Text of the Scripture. Allah’s Book is fool-proof. It is fully explained and fully detailed to act as the final word in all matters relating to Religion
(6/114, 154; 7/52, 170; 11/1; 16/64, 89; 37/17; 39/23 and 41/3).
To read more, Kindly visit
http://web.archive.org/web/20041108150040/http://www.thedivinebook.org/topicwise/salat.asp
Kindly note Dr Kamal's observation about what is read in Tashaddud:
Tashahhud
Verses 37/(78, 79), (108, 109), (119, 120), (129, 130) and (181, 182) indicate that Allah has established offering greetings to the Prophets as a practice among the Believers. These Verses also indicate that the greeting style is passive and not active; while 11/73 points to the words in the ‘greeting format’. All components of statements in Tashahhud (meaning ‘evidence’ or ‘testimony’) are passive and indirect. It is therefore better if ‘the greeting unto the Prophet’ is also uttered in an indirect and passive style:
indirect, passive style:
As-salamo alan Nabi wa Rahmatullahe wa Barakatuhu
Peace and protection (be) unto the Prophet, and mercy of Allah and His blessings.
Direct, active style:
As-salamo alaika ayyuhan Nabi wa Rahmatullahe wa Barakatuhu
Peace and protection on you, O Prophet! And mercy of Allah and His blessings.
by Quasim Hamdani,
The discussion on this thread has been informative, lively, and testy at time. The points of view range from adhering to the Arabic lexicons to define the word Salaat to analyzing the implications of this definition of Salaat on the widerUmmah and the established rituals and practices. It has been interesting to observe how some folks are keenly aware of practical implications of the definition of Salaat, while others view that a single word by itself can not be so consequential compared to the collective messages of the Quran.If Salaat only means prayer, then the Quran also has other words with different shades of meaning for prayer likeDhikr and Du’aa. On the surface, words like Salaat, Dhikr, and Du’aa seem passive, observed as a part of religious practices and rituals, concerned with individual salvation, and producing little in the way of results - look at theUmmah today.
If Salaat only means prayer, then what is prayer? A prayer can take many forms: expressing gratitude to Allah, glorifying Allah, and asking for outcomes, things, and circumstances from Allah. The real prayer, however, is when we demonstrate gratitude through our actions. Our actions glorify Allah. Our actions produce the outcomes, things, and circumstances we desire.
If Salaat only means prayer, then praying to Allah who is nearer to us than our Vena Cava (50:16), whose Divine Energy (Rooh) is part of each person’s constitution of which we understand very little (17:85), Who is with us everywhere (58:7), and He knows what we conceal and what we reveal (2:77) exposes what to Him? Nothing that He is not already aware of.
If Salaat only means prayer, then we better take time and define ‘prayer.’ Today Muslims read the Quran, use the Arabic dictionaries, read the translations and their rituals and their way of life are affirmed.
by Joseph Islam
I feel you have aptly captured and summarised the various positions taken by the contributors. You have also asked some pertinent questions.I have often felt in some discussions that 'prayer', is at times generally understood in terms of 'asking' God for something when it also has the inherency of ‘worshipping’ where one praises and thanks their Lord for His bounties.
034:013 (part)
"...Give thanks, O House of David! Few of My bondmen are thankful”
This underscores the difference between 'salaat' as a form of 'formal worship / prayer', 'dua' as a form of 'asking'and 'dhikr' as a form of 'remembrance'.
However, responding to a very important question you asked:
"If Salaat only means prayer, then praying to Allah who is nearer to us than our Vena Cava (50:16), whose Divine Energy (Rooh) is part of each person’s constitution of which we understand very little (17:85), Who is with us everywhere (58:7), and He knows what we conceal and what we reveal (2:77) exposes what to Him? Nothing that He is not already aware of"
I think this question accesses the core of understanding the relationship between 'Complete Divine knowledge' and'human volition'.
For example, we note a dialogue between Prophet Moses and God in verse 20:17. God asks Prophet Moses with regards his staff "wa ma til'ka biyaminika ya-musa?'. This would approximately translate as "And what is that in your right hand O Moses?".
Now was God not aware of what was in Prophet Moses's right hand? or that it was a staff? or that it was possibly constructed from an off-shoot of a strong branch of a tree or that he even possibly found it somewhere? Was God not aware of any of these possibilities? It is in the response given that we note that Prophet Moses knew exactlywhat was being asked of him which were his 'choices'.
God also knew his choices but it was for Prophet Moses to advance them which introduces the concept of ‘answerability’. "He said: This is my staff / rod (asaya) I lean upon it, and with which I bring down leaves / beat down fodder for my sheep, and wherein I find other uses" (20:18)
In the same way, God knows everything and as you say He is “nearer to us than our Vena Cava (50:16)” yet we remain responsible for our 'choices' and our 'actions'. Knowledge of what we may ask or appreciate is already with Him, yet we are responsible for these choices.
Our prayer, what we ask, how we praise and acknowledge was known to our Lord before He created mankind. Many of us locate God in our understanding of space and time. He is simply not subject to His creation.I have already advanced this theological understanding which can be noted in this thread.
This is even a concept that I feel is supported in the previous scriptures. Before the Lord's prayer is mentioned in Matthew 6:9 ff, we note the statement "...for your father knows what you need before you ask him" (Matt 6:8). But this did not undermine the need for prayer.
He didn't force our choices, we made our choices. He just knew of them and took account of them.
It is absolutely clear from the Quran in my mind that God does respond to prayer.
Response to Zakariyya’s prayer in 19:7, God’s response to a women that pleaded with the Prophet about her husband (58:1), God’s response to Moses’s prayer in 20:36 are all explicit statements.
It is from this point that we need to reconcile our understanding and concept of the Universe and not, with respect, attempt to change the scripture which I feel some do and which I have already publicly asserted.
Keine Kommentare:
Kommentar veröffentlichen